UnityMod [Clientside]

Some servers allow you to use some "code mods" to expand on the server's functionality, as a client or as a host. Expect things like custom saber colors, new console commands, nice admin tools and more.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by fau »

With the wish to appeal greater amount of players we also decided to develop a variety of hacks for the clientside, as those has become quite common to use in the FFA community during the past few years. However, we did this while understanding that it could potentially be a huge turn off for our current users, some of which are parts of clans with rules against the use of hacks in any shape or form. In order to get around this we came up with what we call fair hacks. In its essence this means that we made it possible for the server administrator to disable any or all of the hacks on their server, making them unusable with the clientside, and it is done simply by setting a single cvar.
Ok so how is it any different than, say, evc jkbot?
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 13:10 Ok so how is it any different than, say, evc jkbot?
In its essence this means that we made it possible for the server administrator to disable any or all of the hacks on their server, making them unusable with the clientside, and it is done simply by setting a single cvar.
Don't think server administrators has any control over these things in either of the others you mentioned, at least not to my knowledge :)
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by Flendo »

Good work done, I hope that everyone will use this soon, I like it "+10"
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by fau »

If you send "evcdie" or some other command to evc jkbot user it disables cheats/quits. League mod makes use of it. It's just a backdoor, doesn't make it not-a-cheat. As long as it's opt-out you just released another cheat. Don't think it should be promoted on jk2.info in this state.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by fau »

Look at the server list right now. How many servers have your cvar set? 0. How many server admins do you think would agree to people cheating on their server? Apparently your opt-out approach doesn't work.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 15:21 Look at the server list right now. How many servers have your cvar set? 0. How many server admins do you think would agree to people cheating on their server? Apparently your opt-out approach doesn't work.
Fau, the clientside was literally just released today, along with the documentation, which describe the name of the cvar, how to use it, etc. Of course most, if not all servers have it set to 0, at the moment. SoL already said they plan on disabling them, and I expect at least a few others will too, if not at least just some of the hacks. Also, technically one server already has it set, commUnity, where it have been set for months now, so while I have not shared the cvar until today with the documentation, it hasn't exactly been secret or hidden from those who would simply look at the serverinfo on my server.
fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 15:10 If you send "evcdie" or some other command to evc jkbot user it disables cheats/quits. League mod makes use of it. It's just a backdoor, doesn't make it not-a-cheat. As long as it's opt-out you just released another cheat. Don't think it should be promoted on jk2.info in this state.
I wouldn't exactly call the cvar we added a "backdoor", in any way in fact, especially as the term is usually associated with something being hidden. See it more like a window you have open during a hot summer day, but can close either entirely or partially, should you feel it gets too cold during the evening hours.
fau wrote: 18 Dec 2015, 12:32 Can you block all these cheating "features" from the serverside?
On the first HaX release topic by Jozuf, although not the second, you asked him if it was possible to disable the hacks from the serverside, which they couldn't be, and you even mentioned an adjustable cvar in the serverinfo as something you wouldn't mind. HaX and most other clientsides with hacks, or made specifically with hacks in mind, does not have this option, while ours do, and yes, ours is taking an opt-out approach, but at least you have an option to opt out in the first place. This way, if you just want to play alone on some random old and empty server, you can do this without having to spend a month trying to contact the owner, and ask him to enable the hacks on his server. Instead, for very few remaining active servers, the owners can disable some or all of them within less than a minute.

I am generally against censoring, very much so in fact, be it censoring words or mods, and we've spent countless hours developing this clientside, so obviously I do not agree, when you say it shouldn't be promoted on the community forum. Not only is there no rules set on the forum stating that clientsides containing hacks are not allowed to be shared, but it is also a forum for the entire community, and not just for those against cheats.

Originally there wasn't even going to be a way to disable them at all, until I suggested the cvar to God, as I personally don't mind them for every day FFA use, but wanted the option to disable them for tournament purposes.
Flendo wrote: 27 May 2018, 14:47 Good work done, I hope that everyone will use this soon, I like it "+10"
Thank you very much, Flendo :) Glad to hear you enjoy it :)
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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Kameleon wrote: 27 May 2018, 16:34it hasn't exactly been secret or hidden from those who would simply look at the serverinfo on my server.
So evcdie wasn't exactly a secret, everyone who joined a league mod server could see it. Yet anyone in his right mind will call jkbot a cheat.
See it more like a window you have open during a hot summer day, but can close either entirely or partially, should you feel it gets too cold during the evening hours.
I see it more like "I will steal everything from your house if you leave the window open, you could have closed it".
I am generally against censoring, very much so in fact, be it censoring words or mods
What if I posted an edited qvm of your clientside that doesn't respect the cvar? would you still be against censoring?
not just for those against cheats.
Put that sentence in context of cycling, athletics, poker, counter strike or any other game to see how ridiculous it sounds to me. My point was to make it a part of gameplay of a specific mod/gametype if you love it so much. Not a universal clientside to cheat on any server. This is not acceptable for me.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 19:02 What if I posted an edited qvm of your clientside that doesn't respect the cvar? would you still be against censoring?
I would honestly be surprised if nobody ever released such a thing, given how incredibly easy doing so would be. And no, as we've predicted how likely that scenario is to accur, it wouldn't really change my mind. The main reason the cvar was even added in was because we knew a large portion of the players who used the old clientside was from SoL, which have always had a strict no-cheat policy. The cvar was then added in hope that being able to turn them off would be enough for it to be acceptable by said users, rather than just having them ban the use of it.

Quite honestly, what difference would an opt-in version of the hacks have made? As you and I both know, editing a qvm to ignore such cvar doesn't take more than a few minutes. If anything, somebody would probably make a no-limitations version even sooner, had we restricted them per default, rather than by choice.
fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 19:02 Put that sentence in context of cycling, athletics, poker, counter strike or any other game to see how ridiculous it sounds to me. My point was to make it a part of gameplay of a specific mod/gametype if you love it so much. Not a universal clientside to cheat on any server.
It would indeed sound ridiculous, had JK2 been a competitive game or sport, or if it was used in a big tournament with actual valuable prices involved, as is the case with the examples you listed, but it isn't, and we are less than 100 active players left in the community.
fau wrote: 27 May 2018, 19:02 This is not acceptable for me.
Then develop an anti-cheat for JK2MV.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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The difference between opt-in and opt-out is that I, as a server host feel this is a tool that allows players to abuse my servers. I want no cheating on them and that's my call. It allows ppl to break rules on my servers. How do you feel about people making eg malware for sale? They don't use it themselves, but allow others to attack others. I shouldn't have to do something special to not be abused. This is just not right.

When there is no money involved the only difference is that there is one less reason to cheat. The jk2 I play was/is a competitive esport, even if a small one: https://jkhub.org/wiki/index.php?title= ... di_Outcast

I won't develop anti-cheat because it would be terribly cost-inefficient. The fact that something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. The fact that there is no anti cheat doesn't mean cheating is fine. See window analogy. If some ppl want to then go ahead, but not on my server (and not on sol server).
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by Boothand »

Nice work!
Is this only 1.04, or for 1.02 as well? I would tag the topic with compatible game versions.

As for the cheats, not sure if I've understood correctly, but they only work if the server runs UnityMod serverside, with a cvar enabled, right? As in, you can't take the clientside to a non-UnityMod server and use the hacks?

I would personally prefer if hacks/cheats were disabled by default, out of principle, and could be enabled by an admin - or that you could initiate a private duel/match with cheats enabled, per the users' request.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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Boothand wrote: 28 May 2018, 07:45 Nice work!
Is this only 1.04, or for 1.02 as well? I would tag the topic with compatible game versions.
I think I thought about this, but then forgot about it again. Thank you :D
Boothand wrote: 28 May 2018, 07:45 As for the cheats, not sure if I've understood correctly, but they only work if the server runs UnityMod serverside, with a cvar enabled, right? As in, you can't take the clientside to a non-UnityMod server and use the hacks?
The majority of features in the clientside work universally on any server, regardless of the server mod. The cvar is one you can set in the serverinfo, which you can do no matter which mod you use, and it then allow you to disable any/all hacks at will, be it permanently, or for individual modes.
Boothand wrote: 28 May 2018, 07:45 I would personally prefer if hacks/cheats were disabled by default, out of principle, and could be enabled by an admin - or that you could initiate a private duel/match with cheats enabled, per the users' request.
In order for them to be initiated on certain private matches, it would require support of a serverside mod with such feature. I've stated the reason to have an opt-out approach to the hacks in one of the other replies. For the few servers that might want them disabled, they can do so in less than half a minute, and even change it on the fly with no restart required or anything like that.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by C4N »

Kameleon, could this be used as a lightweight anti-script system for a pure server?
My clan used to have this back in the days http://mrwonko.de/jk3files/Jedi%20Outca ... yer/69168/

We used that with a pure server to be sure that any player in our server had it installed, it wasn't perfect but it worked most of the time.

I'm curious if UnityMod could be used for that purpose.

Edit: The ability to disable serverside shader remaps. I LOVE YOU
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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C4N wrote: 26 Aug 2018, 01:24 Kameleon, could this be used as a lightweight anti-script system for a pure server?
My clan used to have this back in the days http://mrwonko.de/jk3files/Jedi%20Outca ... yer/69168/

We used that with a pure server to be sure that any player in our server had it installed, it wasn't perfect but it worked most of the time.

I'm curious if UnityMod could be used for that purpose.

Edit: The ability to disable serverside shader remaps. I LOVE YOU
Would be very lightweight, and it doesn't scan for scripts or anything, to to a certain small extend I guess it could work. Cheaters always find a way though :P
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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Yea that's what I though. I'll give this a try later today.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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C4N wrote: 26 Aug 2018, 09:59 Yea that's what I though. I'll give this a try later today.
It's by no means anything like an actual anticheat though, just to be clear. Would be a very lightweight one :P
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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One can detect scripts serverside using statistical methods. "Cheaters always find a way", "but everyone is cheating" - poor excuses.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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fau wrote: 27 Aug 2018, 19:07 One can detect scripts serverside using statistical methods. "Cheaters always find a way", "but everyone is cheating" - poor excuses.
If you know how long NT spent trying to keep up with the cheaters, who in the end always found some way to bypass his anti-cheat, you would know there is some truth to that statement. If people truly want to cheat they usually will find some way to bypass either parts of anti-cheats or the entire thing.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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And if ppl in ff community truly wanted to get rid of cheating, they would find a way to ban it or prevent it at large one way or another like in any normal game. They don't, so why come up with excuses?
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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I think the amount of players who truly want to get entirely rid of scripts, hacks, and other cheats are in the minority to be honest, considering the amount of players who use it on a daily basis. It seem to be more of an issue for those who enjoy the more competitive aspects of the game, and to those who enjoy other modes than either NF or FF, such as e.g. Instagib, where even something as simple as a wallhack can prove to be an over powered tool. I don't see where I am coming up with excuses - simply stating the ways things has been until now. If there was ever an anti-cheat released for JK2MV, I recon some servers would use it for regular play, while most would at the very least use it for tournaments, perhaps except "FFA tournaments," where the use of hacks has almost been integrated into the way they play, not much unlike how it did for "fun lame" in 1.02
fau wrote: 27 Aug 2018, 22:06 And if ppl in ff community truly wanted to get rid of cheating, they would find a way to ban it or prevent it at large one way or another like in any normal game. They don't, so why come up with excuses?
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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I think the amount of players who truly want to get entirely rid of scripts, hacks, and other cheats are in the minority to be honest, considering the amount of players who use it on a daily basis
Yes but my interpretation of this fact is that tumour already spread, patient is lost. My consideration is preventing it from spreading to other gametypes where playerbases naturally overlap. Making arguments like these doesn't help. You say that cheating would break instagib, but I think it breaks ff the same for ppl who choose to play legitimately.

Making anti-cheat would be much effort for little effect, at community this size it's way more effective to just ban cheaters case by case.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

Post by Kevin »

Banning all of them will leave you with fewer players left to play with, and without an anti cheat some might be banned on false assumptions rather than actual hacks.

An anti cheat would still allow those players to play, if they remove their hacks and scripts, with no need to ban anyone. If a server was focused on competitive play and had an anti cheat, I think many would respect that - even if some would still attempt to bypass it.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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Would you rather be mechanically marked as a cheater by some drm software without any possibility to appeal rather than your demos reviewed by a seasoned player, where even if he was wrong you can clear yourself of accusations in the future? Personal review is actually a luxury that most mass-market online games simply can't afford.

Banning is good, it works. Cheaters too want to play and they will eventually start respecting your rules or get banned forever. Have you ever hosted a popular server? From my experience consistent penalization by temporary bans of ppl who don't adhere to the rules works great. If you can put the effort to keep up with what's going on the server.

Trying to force people to behave the way you like rarely works out great. I find banning to be more respectful towards players' freedom than forcing them to install drm anti-cheats.

I'm not afraid that there will be less people to play against because I want to play against ppl who play clean and they won't go away - that's the point. I find playing against cheaters is a negative experience, something I'd rather avoid.
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Re: UnityMod [Clientside]

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fau wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 19:41 Would you rather be mechanically marked as a cheater by some drm software without any possibility to appeal rather than your demos reviewed by a seasoned player, where even if he was wrong you can clear yourself of accusations in the future? Personal review is actually a luxury that most mass-market online games simply can't afford.
Not saying a server should automatically ban a player who is marked as a cheater or anything, or impact the gameplay of that player in any way. Would rather it simply marked potential cheaters, perhaps of various grades (scripts, un-whitelisted clientsides, etc).

Being more of a casual player I personally don't have demo recording enabled at all times, should I ever be accused of cheating in a competitive game, and I don't have that software which records the last X amount of minutes of game activity either. Though again, I am against banning people in general, and would probably use it more as a guideline myself, and simply ask the player if they might have enabled something by accident or anything, or forgot to remove a hack before joining, etc.
fau wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 19:41 Banning is good, it works. Cheaters too want to play and they will eventually start respecting your rules or get banned forever. Have you ever hosted a popular server? From my experience consistent penalization by temporary bans of ppl who don't adhere to the rules works great. If you can put the effort to keep up with what's going on the server.
First of, yes I have hosted a popular server once. At the time it was the most popular FFA server on 1.02, before Daggolin opened the DARK server in that version, providing people with things like dimensions and what not. As with any tool, banning can be good, if used sparingly, but I would never ban anyone simply for using e.g. a wallhack, especially not with as little a playerbase as JK2 has these days. That's not a luxury this old community can afford.
fau wrote: 29 Aug 2018, 19:41 Trying to force people to behave the way you like rarely works out great. I find banning to be more respectful towards players' freedom than forcing them to install drm anti-cheats.
I don't see how saying "this server requires an anti-cheat client to play", is any different from "remove your hacks or I will ban you". At least with how e.g. JK2MF did it, even if they were marked as using un-whitelisted clientsides, or didn't have the anti-client installed, or was detected using scripts, they would still be allowed to join the server and watch the match. And one could even just have it be like the "optional" feature of JK2MF, where they were allowed to play, but they would be marked as either "Cheatfree", "Scripter", "Unknown", "Cheater", etc.
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