download system question

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Tr!Force
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download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

ive seen on git a commit called "client now able to permanently decline specific files"... i remember we talked about that few months ago.

My question is; ¿thats only for referenced files? what about the "forced files" the client will be able to decline? u consider that?
i think this situation is weird because to let a file appear in the download pop-up, i need "force" it to download, because the white list is only for files actually in use by the server, like the maps... so if users can decline the forced files can decline some necesary files to play? like a plugin?... there is a chance to implement a second level of forced files? or another way to solve this problem? because i think this new feature will broke the main "force-download" idea...

the current situtation is:

- black list (to block files)
- white list (to let download the files used by the server)
- force list (to pop-up the file, like skins, models or simple files without code or even if there arent used by the server)

i think something like will work fine:

- black list (to block files)
- white list (to let download the files used by the server)
- referenced (ex.force) list (to pop-up the file, like skins, models or simple files without code)
- force list (to force download necesary files like code mods, plugins, etc...)


anyways, idk if u understand my concern
Last edited by Tr!Force on 16 Oct 2015, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: download system question

Post by Kevin »

There is no such thing as "forced" downloads; only files that the server suggests regardless of the map ^^ There shouldn't be a "forced" download type either; just stick with referenced files and let people choose if they want your plugin.

The one you currently call "force list" = referenced files.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

Kameleon wrote:There is no such thing as "forced" downloads; only files that the server suggests regardless of the map ^^ There shouldn't be a "forced" download type either; just stick with referenced files and let people choose if they want your plugin.

The one you currently call "force list" = referenced files.
there is... we talked about this few months ago here -> viewtopic.php?f=33&t=89

basically jk2 mv uses the black, force and white list exactly as how i mentioned avobe. they ported from jk2mf, using the txt file system inside the server folder (ref_whitelist.txt, etc...) and actually the functionallity is how i mentioned:

- black list (to block files)
- white list (to let download the files used by the server)
- force list (to pop-up the file, like skins, models or simple files without code or even if there arent used by the server)

actually the download system do every pop-up by file detected... they now will list what files do u want deny forever becayse is annyoing the download pop-up every time when u join...
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Re: download system question

Post by Kevin »

Yes, but it doesn't "force" the client to download a file. They always have the option to say no.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

Kameleon wrote:Yes, but it doesn't "force" the client to download a file. They always have the option to say no.
well, is not exactly "force", internally, they called "force" to let download files which normally never will appear to download. the basic download detection works like: "if the server (yes, the server) is using a file, like a map, or codemod (in a pk3), the download pop-up will appear. This doesnt work for files like skins, textures, or stuff which they are not being used at that moment, There is when "force" list joins, allowing to define which files will be "forced" to appear in the download pop-up. (files which never will appear in a normal case). but you are right, if we have the option to decline, isnt a real "force" to download, is why i make this thread, because the current "force" list works nice, we can let the user download a clan stuff, funny things, etc... but in some cases maybe there will be files which need to be required to join the server. like server with force mod, my mod, or server which need a client side.
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Re: download system question

Post by ouned »

yeah Triforce I know what you mean.
The name is a bit confusing since the forcelist doesn't force downloading, it forces referencing.
Just like you described.
Documentation: https://github.com/mvdevs/jk2mv/wiki/Se ... g#reflists

We can't force downloading because that would basically bypass the popup making it useless. (e.g. a black hat could just force all of his files)
We wanted to give the users more control over the download system so it can be enabled by default.

What we could do is some sort of flags for files (required to play, optional, etc.) + a description which then appears in the download popup. But that's a lot of work and wouldn't be backwards compatible.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

ouned wrote:yeah Triforce I know what you mean.
The name is a bit confusing since the forcelist doesn't force downloading, it forces referencing.
Just like you described.
Documentation: https://github.com/mvdevs/jk2mv/wiki/Se ... g#reflists

We can't force downloading because that would basically bypass the popup making it useless. (e.g. a black hat could just force all of his files)
We wanted to give the users more control over the download system so it can be enabled by default.

What we could do is some sort of flags for files (required to play, optional, etc.) + a description which then appears in the download popup. But that's a lot of work and wouldn't be backwards compatible.
well, is understandable... and, of course, need a special work for that, specially to think the functionallity, anyways, everytime can be improved, and now works really good :D i hope this can evolve into the features u said above :)

Another question about "deny" files... if i deny a file to download, and if never will appear anymore to download, there are any chance to reject that choice?
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Re: download system question

Post by ouned »

Tr!Force wrote:if i deny a file to download, and if never will appear anymore to download, there are any chance to reject that choice?
The files which are ignored are stored in a file called "dlblacklist.dat". You can delete it to be asked again.

But that's not a good solution for "normal" players.
The plan is to have a list of ignored files in the setup menu in which you can remove the blacklisting.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

ouned wrote:
Tr!Force wrote:if i deny a file to download, and if never will appear anymore to download, there are any chance to reject that choice?
The files which are ignored are stored in a file called "dlblacklist.dat". You can delete it to be asked again.

But that's not a good solution for "normal" players.
The plan is to have a list of ignored files in the setup menu in which you can remove the blacklisting.
yes, that was the reason of my question, because normal players...
the ignored list is exactly that I thought.
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Re: download system question

Post by Daggolin »

I am not really sure why you always want to "force" downloads. I know there are some rare cases in which the server will not reference a file you want clients to have, but in most cases the automatic referencing works fine (and if it doesn't you can still use the reflist). But taking away the user's choice is a no-go in my opinion. I have seen servers suggesting really weird mods far too often. And nobody should be able to send you files through jk2 without your approval.

I like the idea of adding descriptions for the files, but I am not too sure about "flags". I am afraid too many server admins would just abuse those flags and label files as "required", even though you don't need them.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

Daggolin wrote:I am not really sure why you always want to "force" downloads. I know there are some rare cases in which the server will not reference a file you want clients to have
always? in all my threads about this, i only wanted for only one thing, the required plugins, (client code mod) for server which requires a clientside, like my mod, force-mod, duelers, etc... (mod which crashes for the player who doesnt have the clientside)
Daggolin wrote:but in most cases the automatic referencing works fine (and if it doesn't you can still use the reflist). But taking away the user's choice is a no-go in my opinion. I have seen servers suggesting really weird mods far too often. And nobody should be able to send you files through jk2 without your approval.
actually, the "forcelist" is the old "reflist" from jk2mf... reflist doesnt exist in jk2mv, there are only white, black and force lists...

and, every suggestion i said, and every opinion i did, is not about the actual jk2 situation (the present), im thinking in the future... i simply can say "no one is using required server/client side mods today, or weird mods, no one is coding today, there are only 30 - 40 players actually only interested to play the game, and etc, etc, etc.... but im not talking or making opinions using the actual situation of jk2.
Daggolin wrote:I like the idea of adding descriptions for the files, but I am not too sure about "flags". I am afraid too many server admins would just abuse those flags and label files as "required", even though you don't need them.
lol, i think that isnt an "abuse" because that is a personal opinion, every server have theirs own rules, their own features, and their own style to work, there is no a "stantard" rule or a "standard" way to work...
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Re: download system question

Post by Kevin »

Tr!Force wrote: always? in all my threads about this, i only wanted for only one thing, the required plugins, (client code mod) for server which requires a clientside, like my mod, force-mod, duelers, etc... (mod which crashes for the player who doesnt have the clientside)
Yes, but some players use other clientsides too (e.g. KaMod, vVv, etc).
Tr!Force wrote:i simply can say "no one is using required server/client side mods today, or weird mods, no one is coding today
Giz, Daggolin, Boothand, me, and a few others, are all coding, so I'd say there are plenty of programmers left.

Also, the reason nobody is making mods with a required clientside to work is because it would hit activity, break compatibility, and that they are using another mod already.

Making a mod that require the clientside would be stupid. Make it so that they can still play on the server without, while the clientside only enhance the experience for those who have it (e.g. seeing walking ATST's, jetpacks on the back, etc.)
Daggolin wrote:I like the idea of adding descriptions for the files, but I am not too sure about "flags". I am afraid too many server admins would just abuse those flags and label files as "required", even though you don't need them.
Quite sure that flag would be abused too xD Would love descriptions though :)
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Re: download system question

Post by ouned »

Daggolin wrote:I like the idea of adding descriptions for the files, but I am not too sure about "flags". I am afraid too many server admins would just abuse those flags and label files as "required", even though you don't need them.
That would be the admins problem because clicking no on the download popup will then automatically disconnect yourself from the server since it's not optional. It doesn't make sense continue connecting if the file is required for joining and you choose to not download it.
So a server admin would be interested to not mark everything as required.
Tr!Force wrote:there are only 30 - 40 players actually only interested to play the game
looking at the downloads of jk2mv it must be a bit more ~100-150 (all versions)
still not a lot though :lol:
Kameleon wrote:Making a mod that require the clientside would be stupid.
Nah, I wouldn't go that far. I understand the reason for not breaking backwards compatibility. (see jk2mv)
But as soon as you are changing even the tiniest bit of gameplay you end up with a clientside.
That's not stupid at all.
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Re: download system question

Post by Daggolin »

ouned wrote:
Daggolin wrote:I like the idea of adding descriptions for the files, but I am not too sure about "flags". I am afraid too many server admins would just abuse those flags and label files as "required", even though you don't need them.
That would be the admins problem because clicking no on the download popup will then automatically disconnect yourself from the server since it's not optional. It doesn't make sense continue connecting if the file is required for joining and you choose to not download it.
So a server admin would be interested to not mark everything as required.
From my experience the "average jk2 player" is very easy to influence and not fully aware of the consequences of downloading such a file. Most admins don't really read the readmes, they would probably just set false flags and don't check what that means for their clients. If such an admin sets for instance the DS-Online clientside as "required" most clients will simply click okay and download the clientside, possibly disabling other clientsides they wanted to use. And in my opinion it should not be jk2mv that prevents people without a mod's clientside from entering a server, but a proper mod should deal with that on their own. There is quite a few mods that change gameplay in a heavy way, by adding 2 lightsabers, 2 weapons and a lot of other stuff. Still people were able to connect, but stuck in spectator, asked to download the clientside. If someone wants to make such a mod they should either have people stuck in spectator or not let them connect at all. That should be enough to show the clients they need the clientside. After all those mods should be able to run without jk2mv. I also think that jk2mv should give the users more freedom and not taking it away by automatically disconnecting when you refuse to download a "required" file. There have been clientsides that replace other clientsides with all their functionality, clientside checks and additional bugfixes and features (JA++ and JA+ in JKA are a similar, but recent example I think). If "required" files cause a disconncet when you refuse to download them such "replacements" or "alternatives" are made a lot harder to use, where in jk2mp you would just install the replacement and you are able to play.

Kameleon wrote:Making a mod that require the clientside would be stupid.
I don't think that's a stupid idea. If you have a group of friends or a proper playerbase that supports the mod it can be a lot of fun. ;)
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Re: download system question

Post by fau »

ouned wrote:
Tr!Force wrote:there are only 30 - 40 players actually only interested to play the game
looking at the downloads of jk2mv it must be a bit more ~100-150 (all versions)
still not a lot though :lol:
Majority of players I know doesn't use jk2mv. They only switch once they run into a problem and someone tells them to.
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Re: download system question

Post by Kevin »

I didn't say it wouldn't be fun. Force Mod II is a hell of a lot fun, but I think people without a clientside should at least still be able to play there without the clientside. It should enhance the experience for those who have it, while still letting those without it play on the server; without said enhancements. Players without Force Mod 2's clientside can still play on the server, unless the admin enforce the clientside.
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Re: download system question

Post by Daggolin »

Kameleon wrote:I didn't say it wouldn't be fun. Force Mod II is a hell of a lot fun, but I think people without a clientside should at least still be able to play there without the clientside. It should enhance the experience for those who have it, while still letting those without it play on the server; without said enhancements. Players without Force Mod 2's clientside can still play on the server, unless the admin enforce the clientside.
If they don't properly see what others see it is probably better to keep them stuck in spectator. It's most likely not going to be fun to be ingame, seeing only broken animations and such and being killed by invisible lightsabers. :?

fau wrote:Majority of players I know doesn't use jk2mv. They only switch once they run into a problem and someone tells them to.
Most 1.04 players either don't know it or simply don't see the use (or don't know the problems / security issues of jk2mp). In 1.02 however a lot of players use jk2mv. We've recently been on "Tatooine_Outpost_2_0" with 24 humans on [DARK] in 1.02 and the majority of them downloaded the map through jk2mv.
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Re: download system question

Post by Tr!Force »

Kameleon wrote:I didn't say it wouldn't be fun. Force Mod II is a hell of a lot fun, but I think people without a clientside should at least still be able to play there without the clientside. It should enhance the experience for those who have it, while still letting those without it play on the server; without said enhancements. Players without Force Mod 2's clientside can still play on the server, unless the admin enforce the clientside.
Thats not true at all... Most of mods which requires a clientside doesnt work properly without that cliebtside, for example, u can join a forcemod server without the plugin, but he will got crashed if someone uses the grapplehook... Is an example, not all the mods works properly wihtout the clientside, specially the olders/classic ones, only few mods like dsonline or nt's one are "ready" to use without clientside, because they was planned. Is why i said something are "required" and not "optional"
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Re: download system question

Post by ouned »

Daggolin wrote:If "required" files cause a disconnect when you refuse to download them such "replacements" or "alternatives" are made a lot harder to use
good point

the real missing thing is that you still can't really see what a file actually is in the popup menu. A description file inside the pk3 which describes the purpose of it and maybe sending the filesize together with it are definitely something we could look into.
Kameleon wrote:Players without Force Mod 2's clientside can still play on the server, unless the admin enforce the clientside.
gameplay gets unbalanced by design that way
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