WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

Cool!

I think if you intend to make a ctf_yavin map (ruins for example) that could get played in ctf matches, you should look into whether there is something you could do to make it more balanced. Maybe Ferox has an opinion on this.
Ferox
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Ferox »

if u need ideas for balance i can help u out, though that requires more work since JO or at least 1.02 plays without weapons and force so it might be a bit different. i would love to see a great map that is so good and balanced that we could use it in captains. unfortunately every other map except for yavin isnt really suited for our standard 6on6 cpts saber only no force 1.02:

imperial has too much shield and the base is too narrow,
ruins way too big (might consider a 7on7 cpt there),
tumble (or is it called tribute? I mean Azzuros map anyway) might be too hard for returners because its really easy to cap, its not balanced for cap-return relation where yavin is just perfect,
ns_streets too big though it would have potential
ctf_bespin way too small

im sure there would be many good custom maps out there or people willing to modify them, its just this game is 13 years old or more. the only way ppl hosting captains in 1.02 can convince the crowd to play captains on a new map would be that this new map is well balanced and fun to play
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

I agree on the balance and game play Ferox. A WIP for Bespin Arena I was going to think out gameplay a bit. And try to have a Bespin themed ctf map. I got into working ctf into it a bit late. Also after the temple of mechanism, Bespin Arena I am rethinking on how I want to map to turn out. It was headed toward the "Epic" Stage. I am rethinking to tone it down and just work it for ctf and not ffa.

Ctf_yavin_ruins I think would be cool to do. I think I can do it without it taking too long like working on a map on the scale of The Temple of Mechanism. I could throw in some lava here and there but not get too crazy with it. If u would like to PM me some suggestions please do. I will try to work on the stuff u tell me for balance, and gameplay etc then once I can get a little work done I can start a WIP thread here for anyone to discuss etc and try to get a beta to test possibly. I could reroute something by having a cave in for one spot but opening another corridor or making one area a little bigger or smaller by breaking up a rock or wall. I wouldn't want to make a new route unless it was necessary and helped balance etc. I would like to update the look a little and make it look a litte better. I could add some Big trees kinda like mechtempe in the main area of ctf_yavin outside the middle area to make it look more like it's in a forest. Maybe I can just go ahead and make a WIP for it for people to post their ideas.

Currently today I've been photoshopping screen shots from mechtemple. I've found yet a couple more small bugs with mechtemple fixed and compiled (hopefully the last time). I will remake botroutes for it today, there was a spot or 2 bots would get stuck on a loop which wasn't intended.

Also today I am also editing the JA version. I am keeping the lava at the statues but I am also bringing fire effects and fire sounds back for them. There are other sounds I reduced for JO I am bringing back as well and I am adding some sounds in the golf course and other areas with lava. The rancor looks wierd in JA so I am working on a reskin to darken the textures.

I had a race course for vehicles in the map at one point but then added a divider between the main area and the area with the slide since then so a race course won't be very practical now for JA. Bikes etc can probably still go through the divider but it might get a little tricky, therefore I probably won't be adding a vehicle to JA but they can still be used if they have cheats enabled and a bike on the server.
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ouned
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by ouned »

some fresh ctf maps would be awesome.
Especially in 1.02 where ctf_yavin is the only map being played.
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Tr!Force »

ouned wrote:some fresh ctf maps would be awesome.
Especially in 1.02 where ctf_yavin is the only map being played.
+1
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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

This was also mentioned in the CTF skype group, that really only the blue door should be fixed in ctf_yavin.
make a new, bespin based map that is really cool and balanced
anything else doesnt have a chance to be played on cpts anyway after 15 years
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

My theory, is that it isn"t bugged. The blue base is a little more open than the red base and with the two ramps next to the flag point, that creates a more traveled path over the blue door trigger at the flag thus creating the "bug" combined with the other players triggering the trigger at the door. Both sides are equal in dimensions and values for everything. The red flag point trigger is less traveled over than the blue base so this bug isn't experienced as much on the red side.

How to fix this? We can try a wait time and the door could open a little quicker so you won't get stuck at it as long. The only other way to stop that from happening is to only control the door with 1 trigger. Having 2 triggers for one door is what causes this "bug" to happen. I can keep both triggers but group them as entities. The change would be the flag trigger would no longer be used every 15 seconds and be the same as the door trigger or vise versa and it could be used every 5 or 6 seconds.

I am still considering a different approach to a ctf map using some things here and there from the temple of mechanism or golf. And or a bespin themed ctf map. The Bespin WIP I was working on might end up a lot smaller than I set out to make it. I have some ideas though.
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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

Hmm, not sure why it happens when the door settings are identical. I still believe there's a difference in the doors, don't think it has something to do with how often people step on the trigger. The red door can be closed right before someone tries to enter it, but they don't have to wait around 4-5 seconds for it to open again like in blue. Maybe switching out the entities with 'fresh' ones would fix it, though that's Windows-logic :P
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Daggolin
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Daggolin »

If only the blue door is supposed to be fixed I would suggest to only adjust entities on the serverside. That way you can easily fix the door without clients downloading a new version of the map. If there is a clear "goal" of how the door should behave it would probably take less than an hour to actually patch it on one of the servers, so I guess this is not the kind of change for an actual project. ;)
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ouned
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by ouned »

Boothand wrote:This was also mentioned in the CTF skype group, that really only the blue door should be fixed in ctf_yavin.
make a new, bespin based map that is really cool and balanced
anything else doesnt have a chance to be played on cpts anyway after 15 years
I remember playing 1.02 CTF on ctf_ns_streets just a few years ago.
You can see this in old 1.02 movies.
People played a lot more custom maps way back in jk2's history. That also applies to 1.02
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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

I guess CTF as a whole developed and frequent play grew incompatible with maps for reasons stated by Ferox above, or others. I don't know. I think ns_streets is a really fun map to hop around in though. Entirely different from yavin.
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

I remember ns_streets being played a lot in ctf when I played. And the bespin map ctf is not too bad. I think Yavin is just less complicated than the others and is best for a competitive game. It's brighter than the other 2 so people can see better, There's no, falling to your death scenario in ctf_yavin. A few more angles here and there in yavin which are more controlled since you won't leap to your death accidentally.


Since this version of ctf_yavin I am "messing around with" won't be server side I can copy and paste the triggers or remake them exactly using Windows logic.

All this gives me ideas for ct_mechtemple. I'd like to do a little something with it by next week but I am trying to limit my time with any new projects since working on the temple of mechanism..
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Daggolin
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Daggolin »

From what I heard so far you didn't change anything submodel related or in areas players can actually touch. If that's the case I would suggest to not delete and redo the trigger, cause as long as you don't do that people can install your map as replacement to see your version of yavin instead of the original, while still keeping compatibility to the base version. :D
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

Beware - Wall of text!

I added trees, removed and remade the skybox. I did test it like a server side but it did give me an inline model number error. I would like to do both the one I am working on and a server side. Once I get a few things done on the "over edit" I am doing I can bring some elements into the server side version. Basically stuff that would allow it to be run server side. I do wonder if hint brushes on the serverside one can be used to make fps better for people without the map. It might be an advantage to those who have the map if it works that way. I am guessing a possible mirror effect.

For Dark servers if u ctf with an entity mod for the map. I was thinking one thing possibly for a server side edit. Ya know the blue and red icons in the map in the middle of the areas and in the areas themselves. What if I added a place you couldn't get to physically but if you added an entity like a teleport to get you there? I could add in a type of catwalk maybe to observe. Have a balcony on the red and one on the blue side and have a catwalk or something in the middle area? Or a jump from one side to the other with areas to observe the game underneath? Would that be worth doing something like that? Or just let people spectate?


I may have stumbled upon a little something recently however. I will probably make a priority when I do have time to edit. I was rethinking a different approach to making a ctf map using the same theme in mechtemple. I've got a bit started already. Basically the middle area of the ctf map for mech temple is almost done. And I have started on corridors on each side of the middle area to direct where players will go. Just like mechtemple, I am taking pieces of mechtemple and splicing them together to form a ctf map using ctf_yavin as a reference for size etc. It's not a direct copy of yavin or anything. I'm removing a lot of other stuff and condensing it to be roughly equivalent to the size and feel of ctf_yavin but different. I'm not showin any pics just yet. I have sent a pic to one person on the forum. i may hold off releasing the temple of mechanism while I work on it just a little bit. It is turning out pretty neat so far and I am thinking it might be good to wait a little more and release mechtemple with a decent attempt at a ctf map. I won't have to make an addon etc later also. As long as developing the red and blue bases go well It might not take me too long to get one done.

I will definitly take note of the suggestions for ctf_yavin and when I open it up again I will keep them in mind or come back here if I don't remember.
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Daggolin
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Daggolin »

We don't play CTF on dark. So an area for spectators would not be used at all I guess.
Kevin
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Kevin »

They would prefer being in spectator mode I think :) Plus, the "catwalk" would either be used to hide or escape :D I think it would be best to leave out :)
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

the catwalk thing, I was trying to think of a way for it not to be exploited by using an entity mod possibly.

Penalty box though, would a player spawn at an info_player_scoreboard? I've never made one to test it. It would be kool though. THrough server command you could spectate someone and they would be stuck in a penalty box for 1 min? lol If it worked it would be unexploitable unless u had rcon. I can make the box separate from the map so you can't physically walk to it and have a teleport to activate after a min to get u back to the game?

On another note,

Image

an area I am working on for ctf_mechtemple. Screenshot from GTK Radiant. I have rough compiled to look around since the screenshot was made however, decision to make the map brighter, unlike mech temple being night time or during an eclipse. Leaving some day time sound effect but removing some others. I am using ctf_yavin as a side to side reference. I'm not trying to copy yavin, I am trying to get spaces to be slimilar so the map doesn't grow too large. Some spaces may end up being larger or smaller.

One interesting note, the distance from the entrance to mech temple and to the golf course was roughly the same distance as the middle area in ctf yavin without changing anything. I've removed everything else from mech temple and left that area (which is highly condensed with lower walls and no extra levels). Golf is in the map but moved out of the way to maybe use pieces of for the red base or corridors. The inside of the temple from mechtemple is removed to be replaced with a red base. I think it has potential :)
lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

Early pic of the blue base? Kind of a dojo council room look to it? From mech temple?

Left side shows some elements from both red and blue bases from ctf_yavin underneath but not inside the area to scale perspectives and heights etc quickly. This area is sort of becoming a mix of the same elements from the red and blue bases in yavin but different. I'm thinking about raising the middle for the flag and putting the doors a little behind the flag, on the sides. Or the flag can be put toward the end. This is an early image but, I think it could work with some more work done on it.

Image

For the 3D perspective, the 2 ramps on the sides are close to the same distance apart as the raised platfors in ctf_yavin and are close to the same height as the ramps in the blue base to get to the shield unit from the flag in ctf_yavin.
Last edited by lil_binger on 04 Dec 2015, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

Looks pretty cool. I would consider maybe adding small clips to those small edges/transitions in the floor, to keep people from getting stuck in them when jumping. But don't know if that would be an issue judging only from the screenshot.
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ouned
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by ouned »

looks very nice lil_binger
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

a little more work on the blue base.

Image

enclosed the area now, added clips and lights around. Made a hole in the floor for an atrium under the floor with the sky light providing light.

it's about ready to connect to the middle part then, make doors and connect the corridors.
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Boothand
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Boothand »

Looks very interesting! Just curious, why are there clips on the walls?
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

clips are covering pockets to get stuck on and the lights are on those walls in between wood pillars. Like the area in mech temple with the weapons, I removed the weapons and replaced them with blue lighs.
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Daggolin
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by Daggolin »

Looks very nice. :D
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Re: WIP : The Temple of Mechanism

Post by lil_binger »

I could copy that side and paste and rotate to meke a red side but that would be too easy eh?

I have been working a little on connecting some stuff. The corridors on the red side I've been building and I am close to connecting the middle with a second opening. I've got doors where I want them to be in the blue base on the sides but they aren't connected yet but once I get the second opening hashed out, it won't take long.

I've not started on a red side. I'm trying to come up with some ideas to not have any fall to your death spots, while adding some golf course elements to it but making it not to dissimilar from the blue base as to make one team have an advantage.
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