CTF fw stream 28/08

Dates and times for the regular CTF Captain's game events or funwars.
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Boothand
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CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

Starting in a few minutes!

tv.jk2.info
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

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http://www.twitch.tv/jk2info/v/13276522

I ended up having to play almost half the match towards the end, so the entertainment value sinks thusly. Youtube link will be up in this thread shortly: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=166
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Do you use some IM to get these games going or plan them beforehand? Perhaps you'd be interested in using an IRC pickup bot I wrote last year? Didn't make much sense for games smaller than 4v4, but it's still running on #jk2-pickup at quakenet.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

The CTF guys organize it in Skype groups, then I get contacted, I think that's how it works. I don't imagine people would use IRC for this, if that's what you meant though. It's possible we may get a chatbox somewhere on this site though.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Why not? IRC pickups have been around since 97 or so in various team games and still going.
edit: If you meant "use IRC", there are multi comunicators with irc, there are simple clients and there is webchat. The point of IRC is that anyone and his dog can write an IRC bot to suit his needs. Try it with Skype.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

Still not sure how this would function, or what an IRC bot would do? I'm not organizing these things though, I just get asked to play/stream. So I don't really have any say in how they're organizing it. But I can imagine at most 5% of them being willing to try another system than just being contacted on Skype/a big Skype group, which is currently the way things are. :mrgreen:
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Oh, you don't know pickup bots? You can watch one in action here: http://tdmpickup.eu/
I don't intend to promote it neither, making ppl switch is quite and undertaking. Just throwing ideas for actual organizers. My own bot can be tested here: http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=j ... yPXRydWU2f
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

I know what they are, but wasn't sure what you meant that it would do in this case. Daggo told me you might mean that it can pair people up and so on.

The CTFers in 1.02 usually play either Funwar or captain's game. In a fw someone who knows the players well organize the teams in a way that should be more or less balanced and make a fair match. In captain's game, two people (who also know players) duel for the right to pick first, then they pick players until there is 5v5 (usually), which should result in mostly fair teams too.

Prior to this, I think they use Skype to contact players and ask if they can play or show up. I doubt any of them would want/need to try something that involves them... doing something :D It seems to work, and although I have nothing to do with their organizing, I'd be open for any ideas that would make it easier. One thing we've talked a little bit about, is having some kind of in-game notification/browsing system of events, but it's still a bit early to consider.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by ouned »

Especially because IRC is not very common today. not like everyone has an IRC client running in 2015. IRC is mostly used by developers today.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

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ouned wrote:Especially because IRC is not very common today. not like everyone has an IRC client running in 2015.
You don't need a client. How about having pickup bot in a form of webapp, integrated into a portal? It could be done too.
ouned wrote:IRC is mostly used by developers today.
And ppl playing old games, like us :-) If you've got a game with X mln players and full dev support you don't need this. You can add match making, some bulitin lobby/social features and you're done. The problem arises when you can barely get enough ppl to play a game in your favorite teammode. I know from my own experience how tedious is using IM for this. You can message everyone, but not everyone is interested in playing. Others have invisible status etc. Often you think nobody wants to play, but when you join the server a dozen players joins, who were just waiting for someone to show up.
Again it was just a proposition but don't ridicule it like this, many ppl use irc for pickups up to this day.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Daggolin »

fau wrote:I know from my own experience how tedious is using IM for this. You can message everyone, but not everyone is interested in playing. Others have invisible status etc. Often you think nobody wants to play, but when you join the server a dozen players joins, who were just waiting for someone to show up.
Again it was just a proposition but don't ridicule it like this, many ppl use irc for pickups up to this day.
I don't know how familiar you are with the 1.02 CTF-community, but as far as I know they are currently organising their events through a skype-group and it does work pretty well. They're playing daily matches. Even in this very moment they're playing:
1_02_CTF_example.PNG
1_02_CTF_example.PNG (14.98 KiB) Viewed 93699 times
I really doubt they're willing to switch from a working system to an IRC-Bot. ;)
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Ok, It's great that it works for you. We will see what happens when person(s) who actually organizes these events goes inactive. Hope you find someone to step in then.
Again it's just an idea for someone else to pick up. I don't know the community at all.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

I mean, we can't force an idea on to a community just like that.

If key people go inactive, would it make a difference if everyone was in an IRC channel or in a Skype group? Whether someone organizes or not seems to me to not depend on that.
I'm not sure what the best way to organize something is, but I think any newer or better solution must involve giving as much as possible ready-made out of the oven. As soon as they must work for it, they would be better off using the jungle telegraph/Skype groups, I think.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

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Boothand wrote:I mean, we can't force an idea on to a community just like that.
Oh yes you do. I did it and anyone who has ever organized smth. How did skype groups emerge? Why do you force this forums to a community just like that? Again, it's just a proposal. It can be hard or not work out completely.
If key people go inactive, would it make a difference if everyone was in an IRC channel or in a Skype group? Whether someone organizes or not seems to me to not depend on that.
Yes it would, all you need is players willing to play. They can idle there, no need to set anything up in advance. Once the pickup is ready it messages everyone.
I'm not sure what the best way to organize something is, but I think any newer or better solution must involve giving as much as possible ready-made out of the oven. As soon as they must work for it, they would be better off using the jungle telegraph/Skype groups, I think.
I thought that web-app is the ready-made software. I guess I was wrong.

It may look like I'm furiously trying to make the idea your own but I'm not. If you use Skype groups and like it then go ahead. Better is the enemy of good. I'm just answering your doubts and defending technical/organisational advantages of IRC pickups because I'm/was a very happy user of aforementioned #tdmpickup channel (quakelive TDM pickups) and others.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

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fau wrote:They can idle there, no need to set anything up in advance. Once the pickup is ready it messages everyone.
Boothand wrote:The CTFers in 1.02 usually play either Funwar or captain's game. In a fw someone who knows the players well organize the teams in a way that should be more or less balanced and make a fair match. In captain's game, two people (who also know players) duel for the right to pick first, then they pick players until there is 5v5 (usually), which should result in mostly fair teams too.
My point here is that a bot can't possibly organize something for the CTF community unless it was a human who knew the players' positions, skill level and knew what two fair teams would be, and also it must know if a player is actually able to play (idling in an IRC chat does not mean that you are actually there!) based on whoever's playing that day.

If a bot can do this easily, then I will consider an attempt at forcing this idea to the community :?

I do appreciate you trying to help, by the way. Just so we don't forget that :P
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Your "Captain's game" is exactly a PUG - Pick-Up Game.
I know perfectly how it works since we used play all sport team games like this at school. You don't need an organizer, just large enough pool of players. Usually it's obvious who the captains should be. IRC bot keeps track of people who are willing to play. They add to a pickup by typing something (like !add), can remove or get autoremoved on disconnect. When there is enough players added up (eg. 8 for CTF) the bot messages everyone and clears it's list so another pickup can start gathering. Players agree on a server in the main channel, captains pick up their teammates and the game begins. With some rules you can easily plan your time ahead (eg. max 10 min delay + 20 min game - you need at most 30 min of free time to sign up). Everyone sees current status and who has signed up. You can message people if only few players are missing. That's it, the main functionality. You can not even know who is the admin/orga or he can be afk for months. Why don't you take your time and see how it works on #tdmpickup in the eu evening hours (link in one of previous posts)? They've got integrated ranking system so it's technically not even a pickup, but highlits the idea of being spontaneous and common.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Boothand »

Well, I guess at this point it's better to talk to Storage, Flawless or Ferox.. I'll send them in here, and hopefully one/some of them will say if they are interested.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Daggolin »

Boothand wrote:Well, I guess at this point it's better to talk to Storage, Flawless or Ferox.. I'll send them in here, and hopefully one/some of them will say if they are interested.
I already gave the link to some of them and at least from Flawless I received the feedback that there is no interest in switching to IRC. Especially as users are currently informed about matches through push-notifications on Skype and such. Having to connect to an IRC is not that comfortable for the average user. Even though I don't play in their matches I have been in one CTF organisation group and I've gotten notification about matches nearly in every situation: working in the garden, during dinner, on my way to someone, ... I honestly doubt the average users want to figure out ways to receive push-notifications on their phones or tablets. They have a rather comfortable system as it is now and an IRC bot is not going to make things that much better for the average user. As far as I know it's not always the same person organising those matches. ;)

And as far as I know the 1.02 CTF community has stayed stronger with this system for years than 1.02 FFA, 1.04 CTF, 1.04 FFA or any other part of the community. Sure there are always ways to improve things, but the current way has worked out for years.
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by Ferox »

good idea but people like what they are used to and its not worth to have a revolution for 1.02 ctf, if u want to be added to the skype group tell me my skype is delevus5.

captain is basically a pickup, people who play come and are picked. if u sign up for a game with a pickup bot and it notifys you when there are 12 players ready, it doesnt mean the game will start right away but the 12 have to connect to the server, fix positions and get ready to actually play the game. it takes a lot longer than just organizing it the way we do now, i think such pickup bots are very useful for communitys a bit bigger, like the old dota1eu.pickup that used IRC
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Re: CTF fw stream 28/08

Post by fau »

Ferox wrote:good idea but people like what they are used to and its not worth to have a revolution for 1.02 ctf, if u want to be added to the skype group tell me my skype is delevus5.

captain is basically a pickup, people who play come and are picked. if u sign up for a game with a pickup bot and it notifys you when there are 12 players ready, it doesnt mean the game will start right away but the 12 have to connect to the server, fix positions and get ready to actually play the game. it takes a lot longer than just organizing it the way we do now, i think such pickup bots are very useful for communitys a bit bigger, like the old dota1eu.pickup that used IRC
Perhaps you're right (about community size), I had my doubts about it too. Good luck with your pickups!
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