ManHunt Beta test event #2

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Kameleon
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ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 13 Jul 2016, 10:35

Hello everyone :)

After having fixed the minor issues found during the first beta event, I feel it is time to test it again, hopefully with a few more players this time :) I'd like to go for at least two rounds, one with kick damage/knockback disabled (As kicks seemed too OP last time), and one with lvl1 jump, but if people want to continue playing after that we'll just keep playing :D Thanks to those who helped me test during ther first event.

Description
In ManHunt everybody starts off on the blue team. The mod will then randomly select a player to be the hunter, and force that player onto the red team. When a hunter / player from the red team kills someone from the blue team, then they will be forced onto the red team too, to become hunters as well. The round ends when there's only one player left on the blue team, and whoever that might be will then be the winner of the round. :D

This is something that have been played manually in 1.02 for quite a while by now, but I'm very excited to bring it to 1.04 as well :)

Beta event
I would very much like to see as many as possible for the first beta test event, which will be this sunday, 17th of july @ about 8PM / 20:00 GMT+2 / Central European time.

There must be at least 3 players in order to start the round, but if we're only three people testing it, then the round will end shortly after it've started. The more players we'll end up being, the more fun we'll end up having :D

The server will be a 1.04 server called TSL ~ Star :)

So please, come and help me test out the gamemode :D

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Boothand
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 13 Jul 2016, 11:06

Count me in!

Kicks? :D Why would you play Manhunt with force enabled in the first place?

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Milka
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Milka » 13 Jul 2016, 13:03

Sounds like fun, I'll try to be there! ^^

Let's do some promotion to get a dirty dozen. ;D

Kameleon
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 13 Jul 2016, 17:14

Boothand wrote:Count me in!

Kicks? :D Why would you play Manhunt with force enabled in the first place?
In 1.04 they can't send people flying with knockback, so I decided to try with high jump at first, but that resultet in people kicking each other xD But yeah, might end up just making it low jump as default :)

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fau
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by fau » 13 Jul 2016, 20:34

Kameleon wrote:
Boothand wrote:Count me in!

Kicks? :D Why would you play Manhunt with force enabled in the first place?
In 1.04 they can't send people flying with knockback, so I decided to try with high jump at first, but that resultet in people kicking each other xD But yeah, might end up just making it low jump as default :)
1.04 wk comes down mostly to kicking and teamplay. Ganging someone is much easier than in nk where you need to avoid hitting your teammates so it's not well suited for this mode. I played a bunch of 1v2 nk rounds with players on the same level and usually single wins :D (because you need to be very careful attacking simultaneously, also single has better motivation). Players usually just mutually agree to not use kicks. If you want to disable them server-side, either disable damage/knockback or remove them completely in pmove.

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Boothand
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 14 Jul 2016, 04:54

What is wk and nk?

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by God » 14 Jul 2016, 09:03

WK = with kick
NK = no kick

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fau
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by fau » 14 Jul 2016, 20:10

I played a round of manhut yesterday and it's NOT the same as Red Rover. Not sure what rules would work best in 1.04, we're gonna figure it out on sunday I guess :-)

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 15 Jul 2016, 14:48

fau wrote:I played a round of manhut yesterday and it's NOT the same as Red Rover. Not sure what rules would work best in 1.04, we're gonna figure it out on sunday I guess :-)
Having a few team change related issues regarding bots, so I hope you didn't try it with bots xD

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fau
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by fau » 15 Jul 2016, 15:41

No, I played it on some public server. Bot connection code path is a mess in jk2, don't worry about them :D

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 16 Jul 2016, 22:32

fau wrote:No, I played it on some public server. Bot connection code path is a mess in jk2, don't worry about them :D
Ahh okay :D And yes, bots are a nightmare x_x Can't even use forceteam on them properly :lol: If you ever fix the bot related issues, let me know :lol:

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Boothand
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 17 Jul 2016, 04:58

When we're talking about bots, do you guys know who made the mod on that server with the insane bot who had great push/pull/kick technique and could headkick you with super moves etc? It was an American server, I think.

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Milka
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Milka » 17 Jul 2016, 08:19

You mean the "Jan-Ors-bitch-bot" from "gabbys-server", with the "maze" under bespin, wich disappeared for unkown reason? o:

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 17 Jul 2016, 10:15

Yeah, Gabby's server.

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ouned
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by ouned » 17 Jul 2016, 12:05

i will try to come

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by fau » 17 Jul 2016, 12:11

GMT+2 is CEST not CET. No country uses CET at this time of a year I think.

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 17 Jul 2016, 21:02

Feedback from the event:

Overall, it was fun for the duration we played. I have some thoughts on what could be done to make it better, comparing with the experience in 1.02.

If every player who is hunted plays to the best of their ability, their survival will depend mostly on their strafing/jumping and movement skills. The best players in 1.02 would probably survive factors longer than what I did, even though I often ended up winning because I was always running or hiding.

1.04's combat system is really good for duels. Blocking is strong and consistent. 1.02 is really good for CTF and chasing etc (and force, but unrelated). People are more vulnerable, and fighting back is a bad option if you want to live, especially if the hunter is skilled and can bs/dbs well. The seasoned 1.04 players could kill me pretty quickly once they got their saber stuck in me, but overall the damage by default is low for a chase-based game, and it's more like a chip here and there. A thing that was done to counteract the low damage was to remove health and shield pickups. This served its purpose well, I think, but in turn I think it removes some interesting elements from manhunt, which is the dynamics between hiding and taking a 'risk' by stocking up on items (forcefields, mines, turrets) and HP/shield around the map. It gives you a reason to move around the map and a direction to go apart from just escaping, more tactics for the hunters since they know where the huntees would like to go.

Because of the aboves, saber damage should be a cvar, and maybe (in my opinion) default to a little higher than normal, maybe consider having items enabled by default too. Whether it should be higher won't be easy to tell before the game mode is tested with people good at movement. Get some 1.02 ctf guys in on a round, I really recommend this.

The bigger maps were a bit more interesting to me, because the chase dynamics are more interesting, more clever spots to hide, tricky jumps. On the other hand, the above issues are also more present on these bigger maps.

Team damage was an issue since it could be used to weaken your teammates, even if killing them would have had consequences in a later version (however, team damage was turned off after a couple of rounds). One of the fun parts of 1.02 manhunt is when you can boost your teammates to tricky spots. For this, you'd need knockback, which is by default not present in 1.04. It might ruin the dynamics of 1.04 combat however, but I'd give it a try for a round or so.

Other types of team kills I'm not sure about, but I'd probably end up making it so that if you die (in any way at all), you get sent to hunters. Betrayal is always a choice, but I thought it would be lame with saber damage :P In 1.02, there's mostly a culture for helping your teammates, at least in the early game.

Force regen should maybe be able to be cvared to be even faster. Running out of force when jumping fairly normally feels bad at least to me, but I'm accustomed to 1.02.

A final thought is having points awarded and persist between rounds to the survivor, but you already approved or liked this idea. However I missed that the survivor should be able to pick the next hunter, it's a rule in 1.02 manhunt. Ouned was chosen quite many times at random :P

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fau
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by fau » 17 Jul 2016, 21:39

@Boothand Summing up: Increase damage, add knockback, enable items and get 1.02 ctf players. What's the point, we can just play it on 1.02 :-) Different modes are popular in 1.04 and there is a good reason for this, they are better suited for it's dynamic.

I can see 1.04 nf tffa community (I was the only member on the server) enjoying what we played today on some specific maps because they can strafe, chase, team work and catch someone in the air, but we don't really need extra entertainment as much as ppl playing bespin I feel.

On the other hand I wouldn't give up on other rules (ff, guns, maybe special forces for chaser) but I'm not very experienced in them so you need to ask someone else.

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Boothand
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Boothand » 17 Jul 2016, 23:18

I don't really want or need it to be like 1.02, but I wouldn't be surprised if this game mode 'breaks' a little if introduced to skilled strafers/dodgers. The gametype itself rewards the player who can avoid combat, and so I have given some suggestions on how to make it work better as a chase-based game.

But like you pointed out, manhunt can be played this way in 1.02. I think 1.04 could benefit from a different approach, involving some modified secondary weapons or other diversifiers that make 1.04 manhunt more unique, maybe.

Just for reference, for people less familiar with 1.02, here's a video from last year:

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by ouned » 18 Jul 2016, 15:43

The problem is you can run away way more easily in 1.04 as you need to be more accurate and usually need more hits.
chasing simply doesn't work as well as it does in 1.02.

So to compensate that we played small maps on which you can't run away that easily. But that destroys another aspect: hiding.
So all in all I enjoy it much more in 1.02.

I can think of three possible solutions:
1) Enable weapons/force 1.04 CTF style with standard regentime (though no-one except for me will like that)
2) Somehow modify saber damage (maybe even one hit kill?)
3) Usual FF fast regentime (i hate that gametype)

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Daggolin
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Daggolin » 18 Jul 2016, 17:32

First I want to say sorry for not finding the time to attend your manhunt, it was something I have been looking forward to play the whole week and ended up not finding the time for. :(

Anyway, I have participated in manhunt attempts on 1.04 on other occasions, so I am just going to give some feedback based on those experiences, as they seem to be very similar to the aspects listed above.

From my experience manhunt on 1.02 is far more exciting than on 1.04.
As pointed out by above posts the damage on 1.04 is a lot lower and knockback is missing. This leads to a couple of issues:
  • Chasing players is a lot harder for the hunters / easier for the prey
    • No way to knock them somewhere they didn't want to go
    • No way to boost teammates to catch the prey
    • No way really kill the prey while chasing it (at least not with one hit)
  • Avoiding combat is not neccessary, as a 100/100 prey player can engage in combat with a hunter and still run away themselves once their health is too low
    • Other prey can use the "distraction" to get away
    • A group of prey players can easily kill a single hunter (on 1.02 that usually leads to someone accidently knocking either the hunter into a teammater or the other way round, killing the teammate in the process)
Overall the "thrill" is missing on 1.04 manhunt. New players get easily bored and it was hard to convince 1.04 players to give it a chance, as the hunter couldn't kill anyone on countryacademy in the first 5 to 10 minutes. We tried some variations (enabled force for the first hunter) to speed the game up and make the game more "thrilling" (if a hunter with force catches a no-force prey the prey is in trouble). We ended up disabling force for all players again and switched to instagib. Instagib manhunt is far more deadly than a normal saber chase on 1.02 and there basically isn't a safe distance (so sometimes you ran away, but someone still manages to kill from the distance), yet running away is still a thrilling experience and the focus is more on hidin than running. Was quite fun and really different to what we knew from 1.02, but definetly fun and worth trying.

As possible adaptions of manhunt for 1.04 we thought of:
  • Instagib Manhunt
  • Altered saber-settings
    • Knockback (like on 1.02)
    • Damage multiplier (like *3)
  • Super Bryar Manhunt
    • Default saber damage
    • Increased damage for bryar (maybe even instant kill)
    • Saber and Bryar as weapons
  • Super Saber Manhunt
    • Swings (not idle damage) causing instant kills
As I said, we already tried some modifications of manhunt for 1.04 and I think trying all the others might be a lot of fun, too. ;)

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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 18 Jul 2016, 20:03

Thanks to everyone who participated in the event and thank you for all the great feedback :) I will try to implement some of the changes you suggested, and hopefully we can play around with it at some point :D

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Daggolin
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Daggolin » 18 Jul 2016, 20:39

1.02 knockbacks:

Code: Select all

seta g_saberDmgVelocityScale 1

Kameleon
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Kameleon » 19 Jul 2016, 11:55

Daggolin wrote:1.02 knockbacks:

Code: Select all

seta g_saberDmgVelocityScale 1
Thank you :D Always forget about that cVar :D

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Daggolin
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Re: ManHunt Beta test event #2

Post by Daggolin » 19 Jul 2016, 12:57

Kameleon wrote:
Daggolin wrote:1.02 knockbacks:

Code: Select all

seta g_saberDmgVelocityScale 1
Thank you :D Always forget about that cVar :D
By the way, unlike some others keep claiming the right value for 1.02 knockback should be "1", NOT "1.3". Using "1.3" should be interpreted as "1.0" anyway. :ugeek:

1.02:

Code: Select all

		VectorScale (dir, g_knockback.value * (float)knockback / mass, kvel);
1.04:

Code: Select all

		if (mod == MOD_SABER)
		{
			VectorScale (dir, (g_knockback.value * (float)knockback / mass)*g_saberDmgVelocityScale.integer, kvel);
		}
		else
		{
			VectorScale (dir, g_knockback.value * (float)knockback / mass, kvel);
		}

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